After what seemed an eternity, yesterday we finally received the full results of the DT’s “where do you want us to be?” survey. Helpfully in PDF format, I think it must be the first time since 2002 that the supporters have been properly asked about our future, which seems quite an extraordinarily long time.
Sadly, time constraints and trying to work out what the fuck “consensus voting” is has truncated what your editor wanted to do. Even so, it’s still quite lengthy and open to interpretation.
So, what can we conclude? Well…
- Merton is still the firm favourite
If you assume that Option A, C, D and E (to an extent) were the pro-Merton options, it got the bulk of those voting for it, at least “consensus” wise. As an admitted pro-Merton fundamentalist, this remains very pleasing to hear – especially when it’s been 20 years since anything was realistically put on the table.
Sadly, it’s impossible to find out the age breakdown of this survey, because it would have been interesting to see whether the younger ones were as keen on returning to the place called, er, Wimbledon as those who remember games in SW19. That said, there are still a LOT of fans who fall into the latter category, and many of them are still relatively young. Don’t forget the ones who joined in the Selhurst days too, from my own experience they were just as pro-Merton as the older ones.
It wasn’t that people could only pick Merton as an option, there were three options that weren’t explicitly the case…
- There’s lukewarm support for Kingston.
When first preferences were published, the most explicitly pro-Kingston one (Option F) was waaaaay down, and could have been overtaken by Option A. That it pulled back a bit more on the second preference onwards is perhaps unsurprising, read why later, but it does suggest there’s not that much particular love for it.
(as a quick aside, I’m not sure if it’s a sign that the fanbase has rejected giving over control, as press releases suggest. Option C was popular and that relinquishes some control, and in fact the second highest overall was Option E, which again allows scope for some degree of devolving of power. Option D then B would have been the top two if it was…)
This should give the club something to think about. See, whenever RBK mention us in glowing terms, it does feel like they’re trying to “steal” us, and it does feel like the times when Hammam was claiming he was trying to buy Selhurst Park. History could have changed somewhat if that happened, although that does assume the Lebanese camel fucker was being truthful for once.
And is Kingston really “our” area? You see a fair amount of car stickers around SM4, SW19, SW20 and the London Borough of Sutton (more Sutton and Stonecot Hill, though apparently Stoneleigh is decent AFCW territory). Apart from New Malden, you hardly see any presence in Kingston apart from those going to the match.
RBK want AFC Wimbledon in their borough permanently, because it looks good for them. Does anyone else want us there though? Which leads us onto…
- Option B (Fan Owned In Kingston) is the Stay-As-We-Are option, it’s not necessarily pro-Kingston
Let’s face it, a reasonable amount of people are quite simply happy as they are. They’ve enjoyed the last eight years, they have a nice little spot with a nice little group of friends and who get them a nice cup of coffee at half time. They don’t want the upheaval on their Saturday afternoon out, and why should there be? We’re doing OK so far.
One may call them vanilla fans, the “sit-down-and-watch-the-game” brigade, whatever. The premise of this attitude is that it doesn’t matter where they’re watching the game, as long as they’ve got a nice place to go and nice friends etc. They would have been just as happy watching WFC in their nice seat at Selhurst. And chances are, they’ll be just as happy in their nice seat at the Halliburton Dome in SW19.
As a subset, they may have a sizeable support but aren’t likely to put up too much resistance if a move to SW19 (or wherever) turned into fruition. Christ, half of them didn’t quite get WFC trying to move to Milton Keynes in the beginning, and thought it was just the club sabre-rattling yet again.
The blurb in the handout that came with the voting form said the following about this option:
Location: Upgrade KM as necessary to get into the league and maintain our status by working with Kingston Council on gaining the necessary planning permissions and to improve local facilities and access. We could upgrade to a 6,000 capacity stadium under our own steam – an acceptable size for League 1 & 2 requirements – thus ensuring our short- to medium-term future. We have come so far in 8 years. It is silly to make firm plans now for what lies beyond the next 15.
In the real world, KM itself is creaking. The JS is a disgrace, and if truth be told the views in the KRE and the TE aren’t all that either. We have precious little scope to do anything other than basic hospitality, and as the kerfuffle over the Carvery’s location suggests, anything we do try at KM would put noses out of joint.
The only scenario where this would feasibly happen is if it went for the “high cost” option as set out in this document from late 2007. This was written in the days when we were in the Ryman Premier promotion season, where the highest attendance was 4085 against Torquay in the FAT and 3124 in the division against Chelmsford. This season alone, we’ve had higher attendances than Torquay once (though Crawley came very close, and Grimsby will probably top both), and just three lower than the highest league record that season – all within a small margin, and only one of those on a Saturday.
In that two year period, we have already outgrown what was planned back then, and what option B is suggesting. It would end up being more than £3m anyway, and as the new stadia we’ve seen in the last 2 years shows, we would still be sufficiently lacking in the corporate/commercial side. In the meantime, while it’s being refurbished, we’d be subject to reduced capacity which even as a Conference side would dent our budget, and it’s a lot of time, money and effort for something we’d outgrow in a decade anyway. If not before.
Perhaps Option B should have been renamed Option Barnet? Ask those at Underhill what happens if you’re stuck in an inadequate stadium…
- There’s still a large degree of romance at AFC Wimbledon.
In other words, why did the majority of people believe they could fund a return back to Merton themselves? It’s taken six years to get the £3m Khosla debt/Barclays Loan to some reasonably managable level, so try getting them to pay for a stadium ten times that amount.
Unless of course they expect Mike R and co to pay for it all themselves.
- Option A wasn’t much of an option
The numbers speak for themselves. Even your editor, who doesn’t give much of a shit about who runs the club, cares even less for the club’s politics, and wants to see AFCW in Championship football ASAP only put it as a second preference. For the record, my preferences were CADE…
Being realistic, the only way that Option A is ever likely to gain traction is if the club is in a new stadium, financially on a knife-edge and struggling in L2/L1/wherever. And that is something that won’t be an issue for the next ten years or so, or until a new generation of fans come through. Never underestimate how being unsuccessful on the pitch affects viewpoints.
Ironically, the more the club grows attendance wise, the less Option A becomes taboo. Any intake of new supporters will feature fans who have been brought up on Sky, the Premier League, Jeff Stelling on a Saturday afternoon, Chelski being a successful club etc etc. They will still love the game, but not in the same way as, say, somebody who started watching in the 1980s would love it.
Casual fans are exposed to more football than ever before – the days where to watch games you’d either have to go to a ground or wait until at least 10.30pm on a Saturday evening for MOTD are long gone. Hell, even some crappy TV company shows our division. Their expectations have changed, and won’t be so prepared to tolerate crappy football or underachievement. This is something that non-league clubs like Ks have found out to their cost the hard way, and is something to bear in mind if we’re starting to struggle.
Just one thing – didn’t signing Jon Main and Danny Kedwell come under Option A?
- People are quite flexible – “Merton or bust” doesn’t have much traction.
It’s a shame that this is using some weird “consensus voting” system, because the actual voting data for the various preferences would have been easier to look at.
Option D won out, but not by much. The more real-world friendly Option C wasn’t too far behind overall, though it was quite low down when people made their initial choices. But it does suggest that if pushed, people aren’t quite so set in their ways, which may also suggest why Option F did better when it came to second preferences onwards – not as a desire, but more as a backup plan if all else failed.
Every so often, you get less-than-flattering comments about “Merton or bust”, or “Merton militia”, suggesting that if we don’t get back to SW19 the club will eventually fade and die.
It’s half-right – AFCW can’t go on at KM long term, even a redeveloped one, but the results suggest that most people would move on if they had to. Lest we forget that we spent eleven years at Selhurst Park, so being outside our home borough is something we’re used to. Where the confusion lies isn’t “Merton or bust”, it’s a feeling that pushing back to Merton will be diluted and a very good opportunity will be missed.
We’ve had the most positive response in twenty years in the past 24 months. The club will meet owners of a potential site within the near future. Merton Council has at least given lip service in the form of debate motions, all of which unaminously passed (and if you don’t get the significance of that, ask somebody who remembers 1994, and especially what the current MP of Mitcham and Morden said before football became politically expedient).
- Option E was the biggest surprise, and maybe the most telling of the lot.
It’s a vague question, and one that was apparently rewritten more times than a Crawley Town CVA. Does it mean that people would accept Wimbledon or Raynes Park? But not Morden? Would Summerstown or Wandsworth do people? Or even Putney? Or Battersea? Or groundshare at Stamford Bridge? Hey, that has a South West London postcode, too.
Enough questions. Flexibility rules, as we now know. This said, why would people reject an explicitly Kingston option but be happier with a more vague “South West London”? Is the lack of enthusiasm for Kingston more pronounced than we think, to the point we’d even choose Wandsworth if available?
Lest we forget that Plough Lane neighboured Summerstown, which was SW17 (and technically Wandsworth/Tooting), and nobody thought any more of it. If somehow the Dog Track ever became a viable option – and to this day, it’s still puzzling why the owners won’t consider it, although they did allow us to parade a trophy during one meeting – people would consider it going back home despite the postcode change.
You could expand this further. Would people have been happier if we’d got Gander Green Lane instead of KM? And yes, GGL is council owned and would have needed a lot more work on it than KM ever did. And it’s not in SW London any more than Norbiton is. But maybe Option E is simply forcing people to think that if Merton is a no-go, where they would be comfortable in going.
Oh, and I just thought – Brixton is in SW London too, isn’t it? Remember when Hammam called Wimbledon FC “street fighting blacks from Brixton?”.
- 730 responding isn’t a good total.
Have to admit, I would have expected this to be over 1000. It wasn’t limited to DT members, it was posted on the OS, and it was being surveyed one-on-one before a game or two (Darlington IIRC). So it wasn’t exactly a closed shop.
Yet looking at the breakdown of figures, the majority of respondents were DT members, the majority of those were ST holders too, and probably the same people who vote in DT elections each year. 730 is the kind of figure you expect in a “good” DT election year. And perhaps explains why the sort of candidates who get elected seem to reflect the mindset behind Option D…
This survey was supposed to gauge the feelings of the great unwashed AFCW fan, the rank and file, the kind of fan who isn’t “involved” but hasn’t fucked off to Fulham yet. They just didn’t respond, despite being reached out to – only 221 non-DT members replied, out of about 1500 regular matchgoers who aren’t, and of those it’s unclear how many were simply lapsed DT members.
So why didn’t they respond? Has apathy won, or is there something more to it? Were they all secret fans of remaining in Kingston, and felt the survey was biased against them? Did they want Option A, but were unhappy at having to put their name, ST number and/or DT number down, in case they gave the “wrong” answer?
Are they simply just not part of the AFCW “process”? Or is it something far more simple than that, as in they’re not especially fussed right now?
Whatever peoples’ motives were for not filling in the survey, and there was a story about people against Darlington actively trying to avoid those handing it out, it hasn’t connected with the majority of AFCW fans. And this causes a bit of a problem. See, whatever the club presses ahead with, it won’t know what the rank-and-file think. At least if 1000+ responded, some of those would be the “ordinary” fan, and they would have something to work with.
We don’t know if there’s some repressed resistance to Merton in the 2300 or so who didn’t respond (if you assume that the survey reached out to 3000 people), which we will only find out just after a press conference at Crown House is announced.
In all likelyhood, the people who haven’t responded didn’t because they didn’t need to. Which leads onto the final conclusion…
- The survey is mostly academic.
It’s been interesting, and occasionally mind-boggling, to find out the results of it. And people will take what they want out of it. The trouble is with it is that people are being asked their opinion on something that hasn’t happened for twenty years and will take a little while longer before something actually does.
Since 1991, we’ve had nothing, at least nothing concrete. The only actual permanent proposal (if you could call it that) was the Frenzydome, and only a windowlicking slobbering fraud of a human being would have accepted that. Still, that does at least explain who was on the Three Man Commission.
Sure, we’ve had little tidbits, but it’s all Chinese whispers, or supposition, or just outright wishful thinking. For the most part, we’ve had stories like these. And WISA’s mockup of a stadium on Plough Lane (thanks to 2Shirts for the link). And, well, precious little else really. Even today, Merton and (dare I say) AFCW’s comments may have a tinge of tokenism to them.
That might be why Option D got the highest – because nobody really believes anything will happen, might as well go for the option that makes you feel good. If something did happen though, and it looked something like this, would people really shrug their shoulders and go “meh”? Of course they wouldn’t…
It may have been a pang of desperation, or something a lot deeper, but the most noteworthy happening of the last 2/3 years happened practically by accident. When this story in the Evening Substandard came up one sunny (?) morning in 2009, I can’t recall the last time I had so many texts or conversations or so much interest in the story. Even non-AFCW fans were commenting on it, about “going home”. Alas, the story proved to be wide of the mark, but for that brief time it was “live”, it touched people in a way I can’t remember seeing before or since.
And that’s something this survey, for all its good intentions, just couldn’t do. Don’t get me wrong, it was very interesting to read, and there’s things you can get out of it even with its lower-than-hoped-for return rate. But whatever happens next is ultimately out of our hands. The “real world” will intervene sooner or later, and it’s quite probable we’ll have less choice than we think. Our minds will become more focused, and our hearts will have to make one hell of a decision. The next stadium we have will be the last one, after all.
Mind you, at least we now know that 256 people would prefer to pay for a new stadium in Merton themselves…





A better pitcure for the Plough Lane stadium: http://www.jonesyweb.org/www/downloads/images/ploughlane1024.jpg
Updated.
Nice one.
Nice article. Think you’ve made out of it the best you can.
I think you are right. Crisis and its man the pumps. Survey? Meh.
Unless AFCW unilaterally came out and said they’d implement stuff on the basis of it (and after the event, that’ll cause the crisis)
A lot of fans want to just watch football and thats their contribution to the club. But if they want that to continue we have to keep trying to get their views. Even if its a bit ‘qualatitive’ in its formulation and recording (ie. what my mate Chris said)
But its a process and part of the AFCW process is to consult and be open.
Clubs not failed there really, has it?
Funnily enough, was going to put a bit in about how much the club could get away with if it felt the need to.
Conclusion was more than you think.
Personally, I wish something like this had been done in 2004, 2006 and 2008, simply to see if attitudes have softened or even hardened.
Also, one other thing not originally put in : Ian Cooke in FourFourTwo hinted at a commercial venture/partnership (ie Option C) and, ahem, “privately” those on high are of the same opinion. Which as they’re the ones who will have to make any new stadium come to fruition is very telling.
Interesting indeed.
Seems this little survey raises more questions than it answers.
I just cannot see us ever going back to Merton despite what the current Merton council says. Why in Tooting and Mitcham’s new ground did it explicitly state AFC couldn’t play there if it were a league club if the council were pro AFC in Merton? It’s easy for Merton to pay lip service for a move back when they know there are no potential sites in the borough.
I’m one of the Selhurst generation, dragged into watching Wimbledon by a combination of free tickets at school and constant pestering by my mate Bateman, I only went to Plough Lane once.
In my opinion Kingsmeadow would be the best medium term solution but we will outgrow this eventually.
If we build a new stadium despite the obvious problems of where to build it how big would the stadium have to be? Too small it isn’t worth doing too big we could end up with a big white elephant like Darlington.
You would need 9-10k if you’re going to be a L2/L1 level side within the next 10 years:
- existing core, core, *core* is 2500, if you can get that in the CCL and the Ryman, you will certainly get that in L2.
- we “lost” 3k on 28/5/02, and I know at least 7-8 people of that who nominally support AFCW but haven’t or won’t go to a non-league game. A lot of existing support is still there.
- any new stadium/new division boost. Would add at least 1k, possibly 2k for League status.
- 2000 away fans potentially. Don’t think the likes of Luton, Oxford, Wycombe, Brentford, possibly even Barnet wouldn’t help fill it.
- don’t forget Kids For A Quid and other “community” projects, plus family stands etc.
- how many aren’t coming through KM because the JS especially sucks?
So 10k isn’t that far out.
As for LBM etc, I’ve followed this since 1991 and this is the most positive it’s ever been. And who knows about a site………..
Having lived 100 miles away for the last 35 years does give a bit of perspective on all this.
When I was a kid local authority boundaries were important. They might dictate what school you went to you, and they sometimes dictated football loyalties (cross the road on Stonecot Hill wearing the wrong colour jumper as an 8 year old in 1963, and you’d get challenged and beaten up by the older kids – we were on the front line).
I was born in SW17, but just a stone’s throw from the ground. And from the age of 3 lived on the edge of Merton and Sutton. As a kid I thought I could detect behaviour patterns and even accent variations between people from Tooting, Sutton and Morden (specifically Lower Morden). And as for that lot down there in Esher, they seemed to talk just like the royal family.
When I come back now it all just blends into one south west London urban sprawl. Everybody talks the same now. I find myself reverting back to the Blackshaw Road patois in sympathy (mixed with that banks-of-the-Pyl-Brook-twang, so redolent of those lazy days watching the paddle steamers….. – ok, forget that bit).
Unlike years ago, if you dropped me blindfold into most south west London streets now it would take some time to work out which “borough” I was in – I think that micro-regionality feeling has gone. People have moved on, up and out. Down the line to Morden, Ewell, maybe even past Epsom (really posh). Maybe even Hampshire!
The world of work has changed. Your Dad used to walk to work round the corner and you’d see Brighton once a year for a day trip if you were lucky. Now you drive to Bournemouth and back in a morning for a meeting and think nothing of it.
So I think what I’m saying is it doesn’t matter where we play, as long as it’s broadly the catchment area for the demographics of the old Plough Lane support base.
And I think this is best defined by “roads”. When families move out “down the line”, they do the classic ribbon development thing and locate themselves close to the major routes connecting to them to their origins. They can get back easily to see relatives and keep connected with what they know.
So I’d say any site for a new stadium located somewhere off the A3, A24, etc, would fit the bill for me and still feel like “Wimbledon”.
Society has changed and we’re all now very mobile. Football doesn’t draw it’s support any more from the local massed working class ranks.
Maybe the football clubs just have to go where the people have gone?
Us people from Morden most certainly do have an accent
While populations have been spreading far and wide since the Second World War, there’s been a change in emphasis into putting stadia nearer places where people can get to rather than the out-of-town places in the 1990s.
Obviously, you can’t compare Arsenal and the Emirates to AFCW and whatever we do, but transport links are as likely to give you a go-ahead these days as anything.
If you’ve ever been to the Reebok, you’ll know that initially, you had to get a bus journey that was 4 miles long from Bolton station, before they finanlly put a train stop in nearby.
I’ve heard Tolworth mentioned (like I heard Tolworth mentioned in 1999) and that relies on one train station and the A3. If one is buggered – and the A3 often is, with the standard of driving – then you could end up with gridlock everywhere, which is what local authorities try to avoid.
A built up area that needs regenerating may cost more initially, but one near a couple of tube stops may be easier to get…
When is that Metropolitan Line extension to Cheltenham ever going to get finished?
I think that people have to be realistic in respect of a move away from K.M. to another site in either Merton or Kingston. Our options in both boroughs are going to be extemely limited, with the lack of available sites, particularly in Merton.
People talk about the possiblity of moving onto the dog track site. We will encounter the same objections to a move there, as we did when the redevelopement of Plough Lane was muted.
People seem to think that a move back to Merton is the holy grail, and the be all and end all.
Where was Merton Council when we spent all those years at Selhurst Park?
What other borough would have let their Premier League team move out of the Borough without doing everything they could to find an alternative site?
I am not on the inside track, just admit to being an average fan, but have seen little evidence thus far of Merton Council’s commitment to doing all they can to find the club a site in the Borough. I hope that I am proved wrong in the future and will only be too happy to eat humble pie.
I too only saw the tail end of our days at Plough Lane, but had a season ticket for our time at selhurst Park.
I would be quite happy to move to a suitable site in either Merton or Kingston, but not any further afield than that,except if it meant there was no other possible alternative, and our survival was at stake.
As has proved with other clubs that have had to move in the past, there is a limit to where and what distance fans are prepared to travel to support their team.
As time goes on, more and more potential redundant school, industrial, sports club and playing field sites, particularly in Merton over the last year on so, are being granted planning permission for housing by the council.
Again it is one thing building new houses and another having a football ground placed in your area.
It is time for Merton Council in particular, if they want the club back in Merton to come up with positive proposals and not just play lip service.
Unfortunately, back in the 90s we also had Hammam actively wanting Merton Council to pay for most/all of a new stadium back in SW19 (this after he successfully conned them into removing the convent on PL).
It was obvious he was never going to get this, so he used his far better PR to claim that LBM were stalling etc, and it appears his attempt to blame LBM still wins out even today.
Don’t get me wrong, the council haven’t always been 100% on our side, and I’ve certainly got no time for them generally, but most of our current ground problems were down to Wimbledon FC not wanting to return.
And that’s why Hammam is top of my all time Wimbledon hate list, even above Koppout and Wankie and the Nogs.
As for potential sites etc, the Dog Track isn’t one of them.